Daniel Bevan talks to Jason Webber, representative of anti-racism educational charity Show Racism the Red Card, as part of his Welsh Baccalaureate qualification. Discussing a number of issues including the recent events that engulfed Wigan manager Malky Mackay. Thanks to SRTRC for their time.
Daniel Bevan: Has fining clubs for the actions of their supporters proved effective?
Jason Webber: I'd probably say no to be honest. There’s been a lot of clubs that have been fined, particularly European clubs, because of Champions League games where there supporters have made racist chants. If you look at some of the examples, it’s not just a one off occurrence, it happened after that. One thing we always say if “education is key” and a lot of the fines are not huge amounts either, it doesn't have a lot of effect on the clubs because of the finances they have. The starts that have been made, in terms of having game played behind closed doors that we've seen in the last few years, it certainly affects the team because it’s a very different environment that they have to play in. But I think until point deductions and banning teams from playing in competitions, the methods in place aren't having the impact they should be.
DB: The clubs can afford to pay the fine but are they really responsible for what the fans do?
JW: Yes, I think they certainly have a responsibility because obviously ultimately they fans are representing the club. It’s their responsibility to highlight the issues because it’s not something that the club want to fans to be a part of. I think the club needs to highlight it and make sure that the fans are behaving in a respectful way.
DB: The criminals, you could say, aren't necessarily being punished because the game behind closed doors do allow some fans into the ground so would you say this solves the problem?
JW: What you see in the ground tend to be sponsors or corporate people and representatives, but not the core fans. This may show that it doesn't have an impact but there are cases where fans have been banned for life and if they have been banned from stadiums it’s usually for “X” amount of time or indefinitely. But I don't think that happens enough. I don’t think the culprits get punished enough. If it one season ticket holder then it’s easier to deal with but if you've got 20-30,000 fans doing it then it’s difficult to deal with that. But that’s when the club need to have point deductions because it will effect to club and the fans because that’s the club they’re supporting.
DB: How do you stop a crowd of 20,000 chanting rascal abuse?
JW: It goes down to the club and how they highlight it. If they do then you'd hope that the supporters would see how it affects the actual team. But harsher punishments is the way forward for it.
DB: It’s down to the clubs to have a process in place to stop these people from getting into the ground but how can they actually do this?
JW: A lot of fans that have season tickets will have photo cards to get in so if they are banned they need to make sure they aren't able to access those. It’s a lot harder for a ticket system because someone can get a ticket for them. But the staff and police will know of those individuals who are recognisable to them and they will be ejected. One method they use is video technology like in the Cardiff City Stadium. They use face recognition to pick out everyone’s face but that’s only the top end clubs. It’s just a case of letting the staff and police aware and making sure people who have been found guilty of it [racism] won’t be allowed in.
DB: In your opinion what should the punishment be?
JW: It can't be monetary, it’s been evident over the last few year [that is doesn't work]. I think until a club is kicked out of a competition or until they get a points deduction which affects their league position, I don’t think progress will be made. That goes for the players on the pitch as well. Things won't get any if they [UEFA] just continue to fine clubs.
DB: What should the punishment be for player found guilty of racial abuse?
JW: At the moment in Wales it’s a minimum of a ten game ban and UEFA have got a ten point play that involves that. The Premier League just got by the recommendations of UEFA and FIFA, but it still very much depend on the incident. Depending on the incident, a ten game ban and a fine plus the player going through an educational programme, I think that is certainly a starting point. But if it’s a re offender then it should be a lot worse again. Clubs now are looking at putting clauses into player contract that says if they are found guilty of racist abuse then they can have their contract cancelled.
DB: Should it be The FA and The Premier League taking this stand or FIFA so that it cover all countries?
JW: FIFA is the world governing body [of football] so it has to come top down. Having said that I think that the FA and The Premier League can be leaders in this. I they want to do something then they can do it but ultimately FIFA has to be the one that governs this, and UEFA as well of course.
DB: Is racism as bad in this country as it is in others? And are there any example of where it’s worst?
JW: There’s constantly incidents happening but because of organisations like ourselves, in other countries there are bigger issues. Spain in particular and also in Eastern Europe. Fans in the UK are a lot more aware that it [racism] is not acceptable because of the work that clubs have done. The campaigns have made them more aware. They're aren't up to that standard in other countries and that’s where UEFA need to step in and give harsher punishments.
DB: Do we have more control over racism in this country that others, would you say?
JW: I think so. The FA and Premier League Clubs certainly have. I you look at the fines that the Italian FA have dealt out, they are very different to what the English FA have. Having said that I think it could be a lot better. There’s a lot of cases that don't get punished [enough]. If you look at the two most high profile case in that past few year, in terms f [Luis] Suarez and John Terry, I don't think they were punished anywhere near to what they should have been. The John Terry case is different because it went to the police and no the FA but the FA still had to opportunity to punish him as well. They may have fined him and banned him but they could have certainly do a lot more.
DB: Is racism more of a problem in football than in regular society in Britain?
JW: I think I would have to say society because there is still a lot of issues in society. Football always replicates issues and actions in society but things have developed within football. It has got better because the FA and the clubs have started to act on it and the fans are a lot more aware of the connotations of your action. If you a fan and you racist then you may end up getting banned and not being able to see your team. In society it can happen and go unreported but in football it’s in a controlled environment so people are a lot less luckily to do it. But football does replicate society so just because they are at a match and are quite for 90 minutes, it doesn't mean that they don’t have racist thoughts and haven't acted on them in the past.
DB: Ian Moody said “Good people sometimes do bad things” is this an acceptable excuse with regards to his texts and emails to Malky Mackay?
JW: No certainly not. There’s never any excuse and even if it’s done in a personal way or in text messages it’s not acceptable. If you’re talking to your mates and someone over hears the conversation that isn't part of it, as far as the police view it, it’s a racist incident. So if people have these attitudes and they act upon it in any way the there’s no excuse for it.
DB: Is there [any excuse] talking about Wales against England or Spurs fans chanting Yid army?
JW: I don't think there is. A lot of people talk about “banter” and is there a fine line but ultimately we are having a conversation and someone overhears it and takes offence to it then it’s a racist incident. It may not be about them but I don't think that there’s ever an acceptation to it. With Welsh and English, they are still nationalities and that comes under racism and it violates the equality at. If some discriminates against me because I’m Welsh then I can report it and it can be taken further. The difference is there isn't as much history behind it. If you look at the history of being called the “N-word” and slavery then it’s worse but it’s all seen as the same if you report it to the police if you report to the police or the authorities.
DB: What about spurs fans calling themselves Yids, at the end of the day, they are saying it about themselves and Spurs is a historically Jewish run club?
JW: It’s a tough one. Cardiff City fans call themselves “Sheep Shaggers”. It goes back to education. It’s hard to drill into fans [that it’s wrong] and there were incidents last season of other fans singing it [Yid chants] and then they take offence to it. They need to realise that it’s not okay for you to sing it if it’s not okay for someone else to sing it. There’s no incident were that’s acceptable. If you look at black people calling themselves the “N-Word” that’s not acceptable, or that’s the way we stand on it anyway.
DB: What plans have you got in place in order to end racism in British football and what time frame have you set yourselves?
JW: We work with club across the UK and hold events with them that involves young people. Everything that we do is for education. We will continue to work with the footballing authorities and the clubs to ensure that they promote anti-racism and to also make sure that their players are educated on it [anti-racism] as well. We also put pressure on people on FIFA and UEFA to make sure that if an incident happens then the right punishment happens. In terms of a time frame, it’s difficult to judge that but it’s a case of always measuring it because it’s not going to go away tomorrow. We are realistic and we will never claim that. You will always get better with one particular form of racism, like for example racism toward black people has improved a lot in the last 20 years. But now you've got problems with Islamophobia, towards Muslims and towards immigrant’s and asylum seekers. There’s always something that people will pick up on and people will be judged differently because of that. That’s always been a problem with society through countless years throughout history. It’s making sure that we stay at the forefront of the issues in society and making sure it’s not taking place with in sport.
Source: DSG
